Gathering of the clans, er, chieftains

[wombat_socho]

michaellee has been pimping this website aggressively of late, and I have some gut reactions. I'm posting them here because, well, I'm not really part of Twin Cities fandom any more. My future in fandom, such as it is, will be defined by whatever I do here in the Baltimore/Washington are. So I don't think it's my place to shit up League of Wonders with my comments.


With all due respect to Joe, I think he's trying to reinvent the wheel with an amazing new polygonal design. Bringing together representatives from the major fan groups to collaborate on joint projects sounds like a good idea at first blush - but what, exactly, are those projects supposed to be? A couple of the projects mentioned seem to me (despite the nod to voluntary membership) more like a prelude to lumping all the fan organizations - or at least those large & organized enough to be running conventions - together in one group, a group that will be wealthy enough to buy a clubhouse.

There was a time in my life when I thought all SF societies ought to have a club house, but I was about half the age I am now and relatively naive about fans and fandom. Yes, LASFS and NESFA have clubhouses, and possibly there are others, but does anyone seriously think Twin Cities fandom is large enough (and well-off enough) to afford such a thing? Sure, VFW halls are available for what look like reasonable prices, but that's just the purchase price. Who's going to maintain that hall? Is the parent org (let's just call it MTC, Misfits Twin Cities, because we all know who the 800-pound gorillas on the proposed Board are going to be) going to hire a caretaker? What about the bar? Are we really going to store all the stuff for Convergence and Detour and the other five Twin Cities conventions in the hall?

There is a reason fan groups tend to meet in peoples' living rooms and occasional hotel function spaces, when they aren't hanging out in neighborhood restaurants helping the local economy. It helps build community and cohesion on a small scale, in a way that conventions don't. One of the things I've learned in 35 years as a fan is that big things grow out of small groups of people who know and trust each other well enough to want to work together on those big things. Are you really going to get that out of a clubhouse that belongs to some bunch of wannabee SMOFs that most people who attend Detour and Convergence (to say nothing of Marscon, Minicon, Diversicon, Arcana, and Consume) will never have met, much less had a good conversation with, in their lives?

If you're getting the impression that I think MTC as Jon's described it is a Bad Idea, you're damned right I do. The current parent organizations of Convergence and Detour are essentially creatures of the convention staffs, and the idea that they represent the average SF fan or otaku is a sick joke. Admittedly, most of the 5000+ members of those convention (I'm assuming there's about a 2000-fan overlap) could probably care less who's filing the Form 990s with the IRS as long as the Consuites have plenty of pop and munchies and the yaoi/Raptor panels happen on schedule, but you could cause a lot of trouble for both organizations if you started showing up to meetings with 20-30 friends on a regular basis. Every dollar spent by Misfits and ATC comes out of those fans' pockets, and if it isn't going to the convention or back to the community*, I submit that it's being pissed away. Sure, the IRS says those 501(c)(3)s can spend money on buying a clubhouse or renting office space. They can also pay salaries to the directors/Regents, too. Does anyone think that's okay? Didn't think so.

I'm willing to stipulate that Jon means well with his proposal. I'm not at all sanguine about the notion of a "coordinating organization" that has the power to grant or withhold seed money and/or assistance. There's no reason ATC and Misfits can't work together to do things that they both have a common interest in doing, and the same goes for SF Minnesota and MNSTF, etc. I don't think there needs to be a new organization to do that, and I assert that there are plenty of reasons not to start one. Especially if the idea is to set up a Geek Community Center.

Protip: We already have those. They're called "libraries".

*With a nominal amount for hookers and blowadmin expenses.

Comments

[edwarddain.livejournal.com]

*cough*

What's wrong with administrative expenses? It might be some of the only expensing that they ever do...

;-)

[wombat-socho.livejournal.com]

As a former chairman, I am of course quite solicitous of the admin expenses. :)

[burnunit.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the stipulation!

But seriously, I'm not gonna curl up and weep if you DID want to come over and as you say "shit up" the site. Quite comfortable listening to other adults say adult things directly to me.

That said, the idea is evolving, by no means set in stone, and can be let go of if it has to be. I'm strongly disinclined to stop pushing after only six months of conversations.

Perhaps one term I'd like to see us let go of is "clubhouse." I for one am thinking quite a bit bigger than "clubhouse." Old school building, maybe. New construction maybe. But something more the size of a real community center--a Y or an office building or a Campus! Not a vfw hall or converted house.

Can Twin Cities fandom afford it? No. Only in a most cobbled together way. That's why Instead, we launch a capital fund campaign, and get lots of people to pay for it. Including corporate people. Our networks are growing all the time (Your "5000" figure is too small, actually), and we can an should represent our community in some corporate board rooms where they are used to donating substantial sums to community organizations.

Anyway, you're in the conversation now, by dint of saying something public and by virtue of your experience. Experience which despite any appearances to the contrary, I for one appreciate and respect. What next?

[phoenixalpha.livejournal.com]

That's why Instead, we launch a capital fund campaign, and get lots of people to pay for it. Including corporate people.

What's the incentive for corporate sponsors to spring for this? It seems like a hell of an assumption - and a risk, mind you, to get companies involved for no gain. Are you going to offer them advertising? How much? How are you going to deal with the (inevitable) howls of protest from local fandom after taking this sponsorship? And how far are you willing to allow these corporate sponsors to dictate terms to you?

[burnunit.livejournal.com]

Thanks, I'll take that as a compliment! It is a hell of an assumption!

The howls? Oh come on, would I have said "boo" if I wasn't expecting howls? Does yours count as a howl? Cuz that was pretty mild, even sensible questions if it was. Questions which deserve answers—and I only have a few answers to those at this exact moment.

Incentives: To a certain extent, the same incentive they have for building libraries, sports stadiums, and theaters. The "good corporate citizenship game" is well established and there will be no need to reinvent the wheel there. This area has a very rich tradition of very rich corporate and private citizens giving their money away—and to much much smaller constituencies than we represent. Our people are employed by General Mills, Medtronic, Boston Scientific, Target, Best Buy, and on and on. Those companies pour millions into projects just like this. They get to burnish their reputations, the little guys get some money. We send kids to space camp. We brought rocket science to elementary schools. We're supporting literacy. These are worthwhile goals that fat cats can and do eat up.

Terms: Did Medtronic dictate The Guthrie's recent Tony Kushner celebration? Does Target dictate anything to the team despite how bad the Timberwolves are, laying seasons-long piles of dog doo on the floor of the Center bearing their name?

[wombat-socho.livejournal.com]

Coming from a MISFITS background, I understand what you're saying, but ATC (to name just one group) is not MISFITS. All those things you named are things that you are doing for your objectives as a 501(c)(3), but they are not the same as ATC's objectives, which have nothing to do with science or literacy and everything to do with the study of a particular culture.

There is also a history of corporate involvement in anime fandom that is largely absent in SF fandom, and it is not a happy history. While it isn't as bad as, say, the Creation Cons and their history in media fandom, it is enough to provoke anime fans to anger if/when they see distributors actively involved in conventions. This is at the root of what phoenixalpha was referring to.

[porcelainsakura.livejournal.com]

While I can't speak directly for ATC, I will say from my POV that they are evolving and seem to want to do so.
They have been reaching out to schools and libraries and it was quiet the topic of the last meeting that they wish to become an entity that isn't just the backer of Detour.

I feel perhaps people are taking it far too literal. It's not like blueprints are being drawn and contracts being bid on as we speak, I think Jon and Mike are just trying to open the conversation and start the pot going for now.

[wombat-socho.livejournal.com]

"They have been reaching out to schools and libraries and it was quiet the topic of the last meeting that they wish to become an entity that isn't just the backer of Detour."

Which is good, because ATC was never meant to be just the parent company of Detour. As stuckintraffik pointed out in the LoW blog, ATC has always given generously to the Red Cross, the MN Historical Society, and other worthy causes that really don't have much to do with Japanese culture & language.

I hear what you're saying, but honestly, we're not trying to strangle LoW in the cradle, even if it sounds like that. We're contributing to the conversation by pointing out that this sort of thing has been tried before, and we need to look at the failure of those attempts before we start working on another one. This is exactly what I did before setting up the structure of ATC and Detour, by the way; I spent a lot of time reading the MNSTF archives and talking to people who had been through the HRMP Wars (and the Balticon/Boskone equivalents) so that I could take what precautions I could in setting up ATC and Detour. I'd like to think I succeeded, but it's still too early to tell.

[phoenixalpha.livejournal.com]

There's a vast gap between the Guthrie or the Timberwolves and CONvergence, Anime Detour, Minicon, etc. It's a difference of stature within the community, public exposure, mission drive, and general purpose. Comparatively speaking, even with all of Minnesota fandom, we are at a much smaller scale than those organizations, with much less revenue, much less publicity, and, frankly, we're a lot less acceptable by the terms of mainstream culture, especially during the conventions themselves.

Moreover, the idea of uniting all the conventions under one banner is a really, really bad one. As much as I agree in fandom as an overall culture, qob had it quite right when he mentioned too many Alpha Personalities. There's also a fair amount of drama and mission differences. Fandom is not a united whole, fandom is not, as a rule, organized and with it. Staff members, volunteers, are the exception, and not the rule.

Even in terms of staff, you'll come across some astoundingly bad decisions and drama machines. As you begin to increase the size of the organization - and I'm referring to staff here, not congoers themselves - the drama multiplies exponentially. From my point of view, having separate balkanized convention organizations is a Good Thing. This limits the scope of damage that can be done by one con melting down, one treasurer stealing from the coffers, one disagreement.

As matters stand now, conventions throw room parties at other conventions and discuss matters between themselves, exchanging ideas and remaining on generally good terms, with occasional staff crossover. I think this is a fine model. At the end of the day, though, fandom is a vast and fractured beast... and as much as I adore CONvergence and Detour both, as wombat_socho said, ATC and MISFITS are not the same organizationally by any means. Different mission drive, different demographic, different staff ethos.

[wombat-socho.livejournal.com]

But seriously, I'm not gonna curl up and weep if you DID want to come over and as you say "shit up" the site. Quite comfortable listening to other adults say adult things directly to me...Anyway, you're in the conversation now, by dint of saying something public and by virtue of your experience. Experience which despite any appearances to the contrary, I for one appreciate and respect. What next?

TBQH I was reluctant to drop five paragraphs of largely critical :words: into a comment, and planned to drop a link to this post over there this morning.

Thank you for the compliment, but I'm just a regular member of Anime Detour these days and don't speak for the convention or its parent organization. I do think that a lot of the commenters on your original post are caught up in the sense of wonder (see what I did there?), don't realize that their experience as Convergence/Minicon members is not universal within TC fandom, and are likely to find the larger fandom not nearly as excited as they are about this.

[phoenixalpha.livejournal.com]

Also see fallacy #4.

http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html

[burnunit.livejournal.com]

Thank you that very much accords with my belief! Personally, I think it's unrealistic to try to like each other. That's why (sorta why, anyways) I want something neutral and separate. Something kind of dry and businesslike so we can relate to THAT instead of trying to get along. And for exactly fallacy4 reasons. I'm not friends with a Lot of people my friends are friends with, but I'd be okay going to the same meeting building to have my meetings in separate rooms. No managerial relationship, much more reporting. This is a value coming from the CVG perspective where we Very Much do not want any other body able to say "you're spending How much on consuite? No no no, you need to do it differently because we already have plans for that money." or any other example. I would much much prefer to have each org retain their autonomy entirely.

[wombat-socho.livejournal.com]

"I would much much prefer to have each org retain their autonomy entirely."

That being the case, I think LoW is going to get caught in a cleft stick. Either it winds up as a minimalist coordinating committee that produces an Einblatt 2.0 for TC fandom, in which case your dream of a Geek Community Center goes out the window, or it winds up as a CoDominium-style organization where the two dominant members emphasize their priorities to the detriment of the smaller, less powerful members. Sure, it starts with reporting and not management, but any bureaucrat can tell you that you don't report to anyone who doesn't manage you to some extent.

[burnunit.livejournal.com]

Neither if those outcomes follow transparently from this draft proposal. I think I would like some clarification "along the why axis" before I'll be convinced of your assertion. You seem to have presented a fairly automated view in the above, and I challenge you to please put some more support behind those points, if you're willing.

[wombat-socho.livejournal.com]

I'm going to think about this some more and take it to a separate post, because I'm shooting from the hip here. There are things that seem obvious to me that clearly aren't obvious to you.

[huladavid.livejournal.com]

Just out of curiosity, how long have you been active in fandom?

[burnunit.livejournal.com]

I never replied to this. Eighteen years, give or take.

[wombat-socho.livejournal.com]

That's quite a while. I've been in fandom since 1974, but there's a 16-year gap in there where I gafiated; children don't raise themselves.

My persepctive

[qob.livejournal.com]

I am one of the leaders of the Klingon Assault Group. KAG is an international organization with active chapters on 5 continents. We also are the parent of many splinter groups. The thing that is true about KAG and the groups that sprang from them is the same about TC fan groups. They all have different agendas and purposes. I wanted, about 10 years ago, to try to get all the various Klingon groups working together, it didn't work. The leadership and members of the Imperial Klingon Forces are not KAG members for a good reason, they hate KAG and want to do things their own way. While not a perfect parallel to the TC fan scene, I think the lessons are the same. If something works, don't tear it down and rebuild it.

The other issue is something you note: the ConComs of the various groups are not the same as the fans of the conventions. While it differs from group to group, they are an Inner Circle that is happy to be separate from others. While that works to run a con, though making it difficult to become friends with the individuals, I have real doubts that multiple Alpha Personalities can work together.

Re: My persepctive

[burnunit.livejournal.com]

Well, what did you learn? You have an experience from which others could benefit. Was it simply that "they hated you"? Or do you have an idea of what it would have taken to make it work back then? What things would have had to break your way, or go differently? I'd like to know what lessons we can get.


This is absolutely not about tearing down and rebuilding. If you think it is, you are mistaken. It is intended to find a structure and place for existing, stable groups to work together on purpose, rather than on accident. No rebuilding, please.

All right, I'm not going to shit up Wombat's LJ much more, I plan to copy/paste some of this very conversation and put it into a post over at the site, because I think it's really got some good points. If you want me to stick around here and reply I can, but I bet you didn't really want me crashing this party to explain myself.

Re: My perspective

[wombat-socho.livejournal.com]

"All right, I'm not going to shit up Wombat's LJ much more..."

That's not what you're doing. If you'd dropped a five-paragraph comment on this post consisting mainly of snark and bullshit, that would be one thing, but you're engaging in an honest and forthright manner, and I'm honored that you chose to do so.

You're welcome here. Feel free to comment further on this post and others that move you.

Re: My persepctive

[qob.livejournal.com]

"they hated us" Yup I worked hard to overcome this. It frankly turns out that there are Alpha personalities that can not work with other. Also there is a level of unfulfilled ego that drives people into starting up fan groups that feel that any cooperation will lessen their "power." Even to to the point of slander. I lost "friends" because they were too paranoid to interpret a "let's see if we can work together" as a "I want to eat your club." Feel free to copy whatever I post.

A Federation point of view to this Perspective

[fsf-rapier.livejournal.com]

Speaking as a person that still maintains the remains of Federation Strike Fleet, a group that at it's height had 126 members in more than 20 states and 4 continents, I'll vouch for the inevitable drama that ensues whenever you try to group large numbers of...shall we say "unique"...personalities into the governing body of a single entity. I can show you a charter and org chart that set up clubs in various areas that each had autonomy, and only general direction coming from the top...but there was ALWAYS issues. A simple conversation between two people in different areas ended up becoming a "challange to someone's authority" and dealing with egos became more time-consuming than doing what we were supposed to be doing, which was having fun.
Law of Unintended Consequenses...we had to call out the cobblers for that Road because of all the "good intentions".
I'm not saying that the idea is impossible or unworkable, but it's going to take a long time (years, not months) before it's remotely feasable, and it's going to have to have in it a lot more Articles of Confederation than Constitution...at which point you have to wonder about the cost/benefit analysis.

[jamestrainor.livejournal.com]

I, for one, could give a care about working with other conventions and so forth. I'm also extremely skeptical of any kind of revenue sharing plans.

Anime Detour does fine on it's own and I don't think we should be branching off for no reason.

I guess this is kind of a selfish attitude to take, but whatever. We don't do what we do for other organizations, we do it to make local anime fans happy.

[qob.livejournal.com]

I fully understand the "let's build a supergroup" drive, but I agree with you, if something works as is, adding a layer of hassle and bureaucracy rarely helps.

[wombat-socho.livejournal.com]

Coordination, si, compulsion, no?

[quadong.livejournal.com]

Extremely (extremely!) tangential comment:

Consume is history. The MiNNstf relaxacon has been Convivial for the last three years and is again this year.

Just trivia in case you're interested. :-)

[wombat-socho.livejournal.com]

I appreciate the correction. As you may not know, I've been in Virginia for the last couple of years and was not aware of the change.

[burnunit.livejournal.com]

I think there was another comment but
it got deleted? I was going to reply
but it may not be necessary?

In any case, I very much would like access to details of bad experiences and failed attempts at other organizations, both from you Kevin as well as other commenters here.

I also think not every detail of what we are talking about over at the League proposal site is clear. It absolutely falls to us to explicate thoroughly. For example the bureuacracy references and oversight concerns in the criticisms here are ones I believe are not entirely accurate to the actual intentions. But they aren't entirely laid down yet, either. As Kale mentioned in his comments, the time to help shape this into an acceptable organizational model is Now, after all.

And of course if there is a victory condition out there, and it turns out we are right and we find it, I sincerely hope we reflect our higher ideals when we get there! I have no intentions of abandoning the hope yet, and no desire to win at any cost. I'm realistic enough to acknowledge this may not win everyone over, and am Willing to say we'd prefer to win With you, but admit we may have to without you. I hope to prove you wrong and to have no hard feelings when we do!

[huladavid.livejournal.com]

We should talk.

I'm reluctant to go into much detail here in LJ, which is why I've tended to make roundabout references to people, which I'm of two minds about. I have to admit there's a part of me that really thinks that names need to be named if only so the history gets out. There's a part of me that wants to go "off line" do to this, but it might be cleaner to do it where everyone can see the conversation.

[wombat-socho.livejournal.com]

If you're talking about the whole HRMP disaster, MNSTF ought to get some credit for leaving all that stuff online in their archives. I learned a lot from sifting through all that. So the names of the guilty are already public knowledge, so to speak.

[wombat-socho.livejournal.com]

There was, but I thought better of it and moved it to its own post.

To the extent that I have a role in this, sitting in my apartment in Alexandria VA, it's the role of kibitzer. I'm trying to point out things that y'all may not have thought of, throw a light on the rocks and shoals along your course, and if I come off as a cynical, negative old fuck, well, I am what I am.

I think you have some interesting ideas and concepts. I also think that there are a lot of ways to screw this up and not too many ways to make it work. I do wish you and michaellee well, but so far it looks like y'all going straight for a cliff.