The Common Tongue
Jul. 20th, 2006 09:50 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
wombat_sochoGod knows I'm not trying to dredge up the dead and extremely stinky past here, but I was mulling over the concept of the canon as it applies to contemporary SF&F fandom, partially as a result of what ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
windelina had to say in this post (sorry, it's f-locked) about her reaction to some younger fans who didn't quite get the mockup of HAL9000 that sat outside Main Programming this year at Convergence. It occurred to me that every time we get a big influx of fans, part of what leads the mainstream -however you define it at the time- to exclude the neos is that they just don't speak the language. There are just too many referents to films and TV shows they haven't seen, books and stories they haven't read, and all that sort of thing.
Nowadays, of course, I suppose it's not such a big deal, because there are sufficient ghettos within fandom that you don't really have to deal with anyone outside your circle of Trek fans, Harry Potter fans, or whatever your particular fandom might be. On the other hand, when you venture out to a convention, especially a ginormous Gathering of the Tribes such as Convergence, squatting in your little familiar circle is really a waste of time and money. So as we approach the end of the seventh decade of SF conventions, what is the canon? What do fans need to have experienced to interact intelligently with most of the other fans at Convergence? Is there a canon any more, or has the very notion of a central body of knowledge in fandom become obsolete? If there is a canon, what do you think belongs in it?
windelina had to say in this post (sorry, it's f-locked) about her reaction to some younger fans who didn't quite get the mockup of HAL9000 that sat outside Main Programming this year at Convergence. It occurred to me that every time we get a big influx of fans, part of what leads the mainstream -however you define it at the time- to exclude the neos is that they just don't speak the language. There are just too many referents to films and TV shows they haven't seen, books and stories they haven't read, and all that sort of thing. Nowadays, of course, I suppose it's not such a big deal, because there are sufficient ghettos within fandom that you don't really have to deal with anyone outside your circle of Trek fans, Harry Potter fans, or whatever your particular fandom might be. On the other hand, when you venture out to a convention, especially a ginormous Gathering of the Tribes such as Convergence, squatting in your little familiar circle is really a waste of time and money. So as we approach the end of the seventh decade of SF conventions, what is the canon? What do fans need to have experienced to interact intelligently with most of the other fans at Convergence? Is there a canon any more, or has the very notion of a central body of knowledge in fandom become obsolete? If there is a canon, what do you think belongs in it?
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(no subject)
Date: 2006-07-20 03:08 pm (UTC)I think it takes a lot to be a well-rounded fan, and not many can/will do it. But the most important thing is a sense of curiosity and openness - on both sides.
Fan A "You haven't seen THIS?"
Fan B "Nope, but it's good?"
Fan A "Yes!"
Fan B "I'll add it to my list. But I'm trying to get through the last season of THIS."
Fan A "I've never watched that. It's good?"
No matter the age, when fandom gets superior about MY fandom in comparison to YOUR fandom, it's a problem.
Now, as for what should be included...
Comics: The Nail, The Watchmen, Kingdom Come, Marvels, The Dark Knight Returns, The Killing Joke
TV Shows: At least a smattering of Buffy, Angel, Firefly, The West Wing, DS9, The Prisoner, BlackAdder, Star Trek Original Series and Next Gen, Batman and/or Superman Animated Series, Animaniacs. Bonus Points: Quantum Leap, Sid & Marty Krofft Shows, The Tick (live action or animated), Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
Books: I'm not a huge SF fan so I'm lacking in that department. Asimov, of course. Otherwise, Bradbury, Tolkien, CS Lewis, Connie Willis, one or two David Eddings just for comparison, a Jane Austen or two because they are constantly being remade, same for Shakespeare.
Movies: 2001, Clockwork Orange, Lawrence of Arabia, Seven Samurai, Magnificent Seven, Once Upon a Time in the West, Star Wars (all 6), Jaws, Close Encounters, one of two J-Horror films, Real Genius.
There - that's a start. The nicest part of being a fan is discovering something new, after all!
(no subject)
Date: 2006-07-20 04:12 pm (UTC)Word.
This may come as a surprise, but I agree with you on a lot of these, with some exceptions (The West Wing in the SF/fantasy canon? Is there that much slashy goodness there? ;)) although I'd also put in a plug for the Bible, since so many cultural references come out of that.
*makes notes on the comics recommendations*
(no subject)
Date: 2006-07-20 04:15 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-07-20 04:21 pm (UTC)What do you think of Yojimbo/A Fistful of Dollars/Last Man Standing? There's a plot that seems to crop up a lot in SF as well. For that matter, there ought to be some essential noir backgrounding somewhere in the canon besides Blade Runner and Dark City
(no subject)
Date: 2006-07-20 04:41 pm (UTC)Yes, I have had 3 cups of coffee this mornign, why?
(no subject)
Date: 2006-07-20 06:34 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-07-20 08:24 pm (UTC)Yojimbo - Kurosawa in general - should be required.
And I love "Double Indemnity" and "DOA" for noir. Or "Lost Weekend". A few years ago during the noir year we showed "Double Indemnity" in Rex and someone was whining because it wasn't SF/F. I jumped all over him that good film is good film. And you gain a whole new appreciation for films like "Blade Runner" when you understand noir.
That's me above
Date: 2006-07-20 08:26 pm (UTC)Also - for fun noiry film, try "Payback" with Mel Gibson. That's not canon, just fun.
Re: That's me above
Date: 2006-07-20 08:59 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-07-21 12:57 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-07-21 02:13 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-07-20 05:36 pm (UTC)There are tons of people into it that are also in SF/F fandom I know of.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-07-20 06:39 pm (UTC)Oh, absolutely. One could make the same claim regarding Danielle Steel, Tom Clancy or a dozen other mainstream authors & shows, though. I'm mainly interested in genre films, TV shows and books here, though I do agree that Shakespeare belongs because (like the Bible) our culture contains so many references to his work.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-07-20 05:48 pm (UTC)And we all know that The West Wing is a liberal fantasy... so of course it counts. Not a show I watch though, and I really wouldn't count it on the true essentials -- though it might be valuable in some circles, and there was a time where it was a reasonable show to have a panel on. I'd say something like Veronica Mars occupies that sort of slot today. (I don't watch either show, btw.)
It's an interesting point -- I think some of it matters what the shorthand is. I wouldn't be surprised if some anime-themed costumes that suffer in the CONvergence masquerade because they reference something that goes over a judges head -- I know that I miss a few. Or perhaps a video game reference that I miss.
It's especially difficult when I think one of the joys of fandom is the shared inside joke.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-07-20 06:43 pm (UTC)YES. The context is very important! Which fans are we talking about? Which local favorites generate the buzz and get read/watched more often than the Hugo winners?
Agreed. While I appreciated the key to the Legion of Super-Connies last year, I felt bad for Chris that he had to explain the joke...and also for myself because I really didn't get the vast majority of the references.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-07-21 12:48 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-07-20 04:09 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-07-20 04:16 pm (UTC)More so as time goes by and people enter fandom from genres other than literary SF, Trek and Star Wars, but it's always been that way. I have a friend down home who's never been interested in comics - he's mildly dyslexic and it's just too much work for him. The same applies to subbed anime for him. OTOH, he knows pretty much everything there is to know about movies and SF in print.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-07-20 09:38 pm (UTC)That said: There is always a "know-it-all" attitude in the "younger generation" that the older one have to cut through before those in the younger generation can start to appreciate that something like "Underworld", for example, might not be the End-All Be-All authority on Vampires and Were-creatures.
Items that should be understood by a "Fan":
1. The Hobbit (LOTR is recommended, but still optional)
2. Star Trek TOS (Next Generation is recommended, all others are optional)
3. Star Wars (At least the first trilogy)
4. Arthurian Legend (pick one)
5. The Adventures of Robin Hood (Pick one)
6. One of the following series:
~Harry Potter
~The Chronicles of Narnia
~The Martian Chronicles
If you can get this simple background, you can at least follow most (51%) conversations at CONvergence. Hopefully, you'll realize your ignorance at this point and become interested in learning more.
Other things an older fan SHOULD be familiar with, not necessarily all of them, but these have been on fan radar long enough to be known. This list is not exhaustive:
Literature
The Bible (Old Testament more than New)
William Shakespeare
Geoffrey Chaucer
Mary Shelly
Novels
The Dragonriders of Pern
The Belgariad
The Dark Tower
Starship Troopers
The Chronicles of Amber
The Wheel of Time
The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant
The Riftwar Saga
Films
Close Encounters of the Third Kind
Dragonslayer
Superman (1980)
Krull
Jaws
Battlestar Galactica
I have to run, but I meant to put on a few other television shows...feel free to add on.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-07-20 09:57 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-07-20 09:58 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-07-21 05:13 am (UTC)isn't about reading the "best of" - you need to read
some of the "less good" stuff too in order to be a
bit more well rounded, and to understand some of
the evolution of it all.
I was going to comment on Wombat's "the bible should
be part of it" and ask if he was including that in the
fiction part of things, but that is likely a very different
set of blog entries ;-)
doug
(no subject)
Date: 2006-07-21 02:23 pm (UTC)You know me better than that. ^^ I was thinking that it belongs in the larger canon of Western civilization, of which SF&F is only a part, because (like Shakespeare) so much of what comes after it draws on it, often in ways we're not conscious of.
Your point about fans needing to be aware of the not-so-good stuff is a valid one, too. Lots of the stuff I like (Saberhagen, Laumer, Christopher Anvil, David Drake, etc.) isn't award winning literature by anyone's definition, but it's still good entertainment, tasty brain candy. The Thomas Covenant novels (well, the first ones, anyway) definitely fall into that category.
Maybe it's becuase I'm an asshole...
Date: 2006-07-21 12:55 am (UTC)(Maybe I'm an anarchist, but then would an anarchist spend hours carefully shaving his head and dousing it with bay rum aftershave? And the woman sitting next to me just asked if I was a Buddhist, go fig.)
Re: Maybe it's becuase I'm an asshole...
Date: 2006-07-21 02:30 pm (UTC)I think it has to be better defined than that, or we wind up with all kinds of marginal stuff like Tom Clancy, The West Wing and Gore Vidal clogging up the cultural commons. To expand on the analogy, the country of SF&F is a really big sprawling place; I'm just trying to get a handle on what people think are the cities and monuments worth checking out. Especially because the kids sometimes aren't aware that the newer parts of the city aren't all there is.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-07-21 07:10 pm (UTC)Lord of the Rings
Star Trek (at least the first series)
Star Wars (the original three movies)
Close Encounters of the Third Kind
The Foundation Trilogy
Stranger in a Strange Land
The Dragonriders of Pern (at least the first trilogy)
The Cthulhu mythos
Doctor Who (at least know the concept behind the show)
Robotech
Highhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
Neuromancer
Also, key concepts/names they should recognize, even if they've never read the book/seen the movie:
Berserkers (Saberhagen)
Daleks
Hammers Slammers
Cthulhu
Conan
Klingons
Darkover
Also, people important to the field they should be aware of:
4E
Asimov
Heinlein
Gene Roddenberry
Tolkein
Ursula LeGuin
John W. Campbell
(no subject)
Date: 2006-07-21 07:30 pm (UTC)This whole business is tempting me to assemble a fandom version of the Purity Test, although that's almost certainly the wrong name for it.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-07-22 04:51 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-01-08 09:26 pm (UTC)Elder fan: "What're you reading? ... Oh, that's a good book."
Me: "Yeah, I'm liking it." (We talk about it for a moment)
Elder fan: "You mean you're just reading that for the first time??!" *in shocked disbelief*
Me: "Well, uh, yeah."
Elder fan: "I can't believe you've never read that one before! Sheesh!"
Me: "Well, I was about negative-15 when it came out, and so were most of my friends."
(no subject)
Date: 2007-01-09 01:12 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-01-08 09:32 pm (UTC)Macross
Battle of the Planets
something by Matsumoru (sp?), like Captain Harlock or Galaxy Express
Sailor Moon
Akira
at least one incarnation of Gundam
If he really wants to be hip, he needs to see Utena, Cowboy Bebop, something by CLAMP, and Fullmetal Alchemist.
And Miyazaki is too obvious to even mention.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-01-09 01:12 am (UTC)Of the anime you mention, I've only seen a couple of the Captain Harlock series, Sailor Moon, and Akira (which I hated). Then again, I came in late to this anime thing.